San Antonio Riverwalk differences from Windsor’s Canal Plan
Mr. Chris Shnurr asked a question during my last post which I want to answer on this one
“Where is the canal in San Antonio by the way? I thought the Riverwalk were improvements along the San Antonio River - a prexisting natural feature the city capitalized on?”
My answer is as follows which is information garnered from a 40 minute river tour (thats how long it takes a boat to transverse the canal at a leisurely rate)
I’m not disagreeing on but are you saying that the mayor’s plan is not to capitalize on a pre-existing natural feature in Windsor?
However here are a few of the vast, differences. From which I conclude that we should never, I mean ever, compare the two projects again.
the Canal in San Antonio served a purpose beyond being an architectural feature (Thats the best term I’ve found to describe it)
In San Antonio, they had a flooding problem and dug out the Canal to deal with floodwaters. The Canal served as a way to mitigate the problems when the river flooded
Also they were looking for a way to connect the convention center to the River, a way to move people between the two. The Canal serves as pedestrian, boat (they have taxi’s and river shuttles) to take you between your hotel and the convention center
In addition to that the Canal serves as a pedestrian route connecting hotels to the Alamo plaza, the mall and Aztec theater which all have entrances on the riverwalk.
Recently, they spent $72 million extended the Canal so that it could connect to the a Hotel. This extension was paid for 100% by the hotels that wanted to connect to the riverwalk. Yep, thats right, privately funded.
The amount of ways that the riverwalk connects to the city streets are vast, there are multiple elevators.
(I’d like to see one elevator that takes people from our riverfront to riverside street level)
This post is not meant to discourage the idea of a Canal in WIndsor, only the thought that it would or should ever be used in the same sentence as San Antonio. Ours is meant to be a pretty architectural feature that I do believe does capitalize on our city’s pre-existing natural riverfront feature. However, what will it connect the river to? a neighborhood with some mixed use.
From what I’ve seen in Florida and Texas, there is no more retail to lure. In Naples Florida I’ve seen amazingly designed lifestyle centers that sit completely void of retail. We’ll get some cafe’s and I’m sure some nice restaurants but other than a gift shop, retail would be very doubtful.
Now back to my primary question, what will it take to lure potential residents to Downtown? When will we get down to actually asking them?
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Mark…
I’m tying this response to these last two posts. While you are sitting at Boudro’s with a tall glass of Toad Hollow in reach you should not be grinding about sustainability when a recent poll suggests that over 60% of Windsorites have opted not to go any place for March break. They, for the moment, are the ones who are genuinely concerned with sustainability.
As for San Antonio’s River Walk it can be navigated on foot in less than half an hour. For many that’s all the time they want to spend there as it is essentially an expensive food court that straddles along a man made stretch of river. Most of it is only about eight feet wide. The experience there seems like a strange mix of downtown Niagra Falls and Disney’s “It’s a wonderful World”. If memory serves, there is even a Ripley’s there. Really… there are a lot of better things to do in the San Antonio area.
Mark is right about it originally being a part of the city’s flood control solution. The San Antonio River has a bad habit of acting up every now and then. The real difference between that river loop and Windsor’s concept is that it shares the same NATURAL water level as the San Antonio River. Downtown Windsor is almost 40 feet above the surface of the Detroit River. The Windsor deal (being facetious) would be nothing more than a glorified wading pool (filled with tap water) with the potential to flood basements if it fails.
The same net result could be achieved with a narrow and winding cobble stone street with a water feature such as a fountain. Maybe with a statue of Mayor Francis pouring water out of an urn. That…I’d be willing to pay for.
Regarding an elevator down to (up from) the riverfront, that would indeed be a great thing for visitors and residents alike. It’s the kind of integration of spaces that makes a place inviting.
Unless I misunderstand what is happening, which might be the case, I’m not so certain it’s feasible any more, since the City decided to turn the sub-terrainian riverfront, which I assume includes below the Drive, into a holding basin for our water waste.
Ideally, you should be able to take an elevator in any of those riverfront-facing buildings (but particularly the Casino and other hotels) down to the riverfront ground level. Where the structure allows it, the area under the Drive could be excavated and used for a variety of purposes (other than just holding waste water, which should have been placed somewhere we’d be less likely to want to dig).
I hope this remains possible, even with the waste water storage.
Why should I not be grinding about sustainability when the entire reason for my visit is to learn ideas on how to make my own locally owned independent business thrive and share those same ideas with all the Windsor businesses that are interested
The Riverwalk is still 20 feet below the city streets.
But, M.O.M. as far as architectural features go, my same arguments regarding no one being certain a canal wouldn’t work, also apply to people not being able to prove your pouring into an urn water fountain wouldn’t work either!
To Randy. The Catch basin is a good thing that is long overdue, what it gets covered with will determine if the park is more or less useable. I’m thinking it will be more useable. I’d rather the holding basin for our raw sewage be under our riverfront than in the river and lakes themselves
Mark, to say that “my same arguments regarding no one being certain a canal wouldn’t work” is a bit disengenuous. We can turn that around and argue that no one can be certain that a canal would actually work.
We have to look at probabilities of success. A canal may work, but what is the probability that it will? What is the probability that it won’t work? I say that it is more likely not to work than work.
The San Antonio is a much different animal than what is being proposed for Windsor; it’s mainly a shopping district. Windsor’s west downtown has always, rightly, included housing as well as retail and commercial. I’m sure you would agree that we can’t dispose of those as required ingredients for our downtown.
I like the cobbled streets idea MoM proposed. Like Montreal’s Old Town.
If a Canal is Francis’s vision of what it takes to revive Windsor’s economy we are doomed. Windsor needs good paying jobs, not a glorified taxpayer funded ditch that will become mosquito infested every summer. Windsor is not Venice nor will it ever be. Our strength is our skilled workforce which needs employment, not to be retrained as Venetian Gondola polers. Our city’s motto is “The river and the land sustain us” so we should work toward creating employment that utilizes those resources. Lets create a new vision for Windsor and be the “Greenhouse Capital of Canada” using our river water to irrigate huge greenhouses located on the land that used to manufacture automobiles. Produce grown would be processed in plants that used to provide automobile accessories. Many local jobs would be created, food for Canadian tables would be produced and the money earned would benefit our entire community. Start thinking outside the AutoBox.
The thing is that the Canal feasiblity study is not exclusively about the canal. It talks about a whole host of things that need to happen for a Canal to be successful. It also includes many other great features like a small transient marina which always seems to get lost in the comments
I put to you that if everything that the Canal Feasibility study was done to ensure the Canal was Successful, it would be. However, any architectural feature probably woudl be too, In fact so would placing my old shoes in the middle of whatever parkspace is included as a work of art the plan is built around
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Vincent indicated that the marina concept within the canal plan was a non-starter.
My understanding is that any marina located within the Detroit River is subject to stringent regulations by the Canadian Government (apparently runaway ships are a problem, or so the regs would have us believe) which makes that option cost prohibitive. A marina within the Caron Avenue cut is also cost prohibitive due to engineering issues.
Boating is not getting any cheaper these days and you have private and public marinas struggling to get by. I have no doubt that a transient marina in the downtown would attract boaters. I just question the ability to recover the costs of constructing and then maintaining the marina.
You could be right, but shouldn’t we do a feasibility study on this one element. If we can rally up 100k in private funding for a canal feasibility, or 100k an armories feasibility. We shouid be able to get your concerns and questions answered once and for all.
There are transient marinas along the course of our river and most have struggled to survive. Even Amherstburg wants to sell off the Ranta Marina because it does not pay. Why would you think that transient boaters would come to Windsor to visit an above water level canal? The canal dreamers must be smoking funny stuff to think that taxed to death Windsor residents will even consider funding a canal project. If this potential project was a good idea local business owners would be lined up 4 deep all along Ouellette ave. just to get a piece of the action.
A downtown marina and ferry dock would be a completely different proposition to any of the marina’s in the rest of Windsor
Detroit is building a 7 million dollar dock in hart plaza to dock cruise ships. I’m speculating and hoping that a transient marina with a matching ferrry dock would allow those who wish to travel between the two.
This would create a pleasant way for day visitors to travel between the two downtowns.
I don’t think the visitors will come for the Canal, I think they’ll come to see Windsor and Canada if we continue on with some of the good work we’re doing.
Didja know that we’re going to be the first city to host the Olympic inflateables in a larger inflateable festival?
Didja know that our film festival just received the award of top 100 festivals in all of Ontario?
Didja know that the fringe festival received a tremendous amount of investment to make the festival the best year yet?
Didja know that if we combined our riverfront with the newly created Detroit riverfront park investment that we would create the first international riverwalk park? Have the ferry be able to carry bicycles and you might create pretty nice experience for people
Thats what a ferry customer might want to come and see.
Its not just about a canal.
I think a ferry would be great, but I don’t see it happening. Look at Rochester NY to Toronto; it failed because the Canadian government demanded that the ferry company pay for customs clearance. Ideas keep getting proposed for Lake Erie ferries, either in the Leamington area or Port Stanley, but they never get off the ground. Or any of the cable car ideas. Then consider the passport issue - no more spontaneous trips even if you have a passport, because it’s at home when you are downtown. Ferries were put out of business by the bridge and tunnel; this would be a huge risk to test “if you build it, they will come.”
Mark, Can you explain what you meant when you wrote, “A downtown marina and ferry dock would be a completely different proposition to any of the marina’s in the rest of Windsor”?
How, exactly, would a downtown marina not have to compete for boaters with other marinas? If other marinas are having a tough go of it (including the city owned marina on the east side), then how can a higher capacity of slips create a better economic situation for all marinas?
I do like the idea of water taxi’s, though. Ferrying riverfront visitors from one end of the river to the other, or somewhere in between. And even across to Detroit. Having not looked into it any more than what I’ve just put forward, it seems to help to enhance the riverfront more than a canal or transient marina would.
A downtown Marina would connect to a downtown whereas the other marina’s in essex county connect to basically one restaurant and gas station
Not only a downtown and mainstreet, but the downtown marina would connect to hotels, a riverfront park, a farmers market, restaurants and all the other businesses within.
Jim may be right but I like to think as Downtown Windsor and Downtown Detroit as adjacent neighborhoods that are actually connected to the river. That may not be the same with Rochester NY and Toronto, how long was the ferry trip there?
The Toronto-Rochester trip was by hydrofoil. The trip was less than an hour. I think it ran two seasons, but that may just me being generous.
I’m figuring a Detroit Windsor Ferry would be about 20 minutes including docking. The usage would be determined by the experiences that could be created. I figure the customs could be precleared like they did for superbowl and some of the other events
When I think marina, pollution comes to mind.
When I think ferry, connecting our two downtowns come to mind
I don’t think a marina will increase boating on the lakes, only allow it to bring something positive
When I think of joining two downtowns competition comes to mind. If you open up more avenues for people to spend it just gets split up into less for each one, if it did get split evenly which is in itself a pipedream.
So in saying that are you willing to risk competition for a possible smaller portion of the pie?
I still say a canal in the middle of a downtown that is surrounded by great lakes won’t really bring people in nor would it spawn development. The cost to develop around the canal would be prohibitive just with time.
Case in point,
Miami is recording a huge downtown revival because condos are selling again in the downtown area. People are rediscovering the core area.
Windsor is complaining it will lose revenue by changing over to condos from apartment buildings.
Simple ideas that work today, will spawn future development, not guesses.
Kdduck - I never think like that, For example, I want more well run restaurants downtown. It makes downtown a destination.
I’ve scratched the surface of the creative things that are going on downtown detroit. Its amazing. Right now we have two separate groups of people working on the same problems, duplicating many of the efforts. We could both be working on the same problems and solve them.
If they’re building “A” then instead of us building a smaller “A” we should work on building “B” to compliment it.
If detroits solving part of the puzzle, lets work on another part.
I never worry about my piece of the pie, I worry about how to make the pie bigger
Steve, there is a grocery store downtown called food basics. People might think its crappy but its there. Separately we have a summer weekend farmers market and if we just build on that with some convenience stores expanding their wares to fruits and veg and maybe some deli meats we’re there
I’m currently in Downtown Austin and they have no downtown Grocery store that I’ve found yet but they have a lot of convenience stores that have mini markets. Even Downtown Toronto has a whole bunch of convenience with some fruits and veg.
I only moved to Windsor at the end of August, but quite enjoyed the weekly farmers market (I came into downtown because of it) and am looking forward to it this season as well. Hoping that I will be able to make it to opening weekend.
Food Basics is fine for packaged foods, but I am a bit of a produce snob I guess! Most of the convenience stores around me (west of downtown) that I have looked at barely have any fresh food, and some of the packaged food they do have is beyond the best-before dates.
Heck, a decent grocery store in the downtown west improvement area might even draw University students to do their shopping there, as they don’t have much in terms of grocery either.
Don’t disagree with u, bu I think it’s important to distinguish that downtown DOES have a grocery store. Just not the nicest one.. If downtown convenience are stockin past due products then I think the health department should be notified. That’s dangerous.
Let’s hope our current offerings improve. Demand creates supply, rarely the other way around
University students have Westside Foods in Sandwich, the Price Chopper at Crawford and Wyandotte, Giglios Market on Wyandotte or Mingli Vegetables on University. When I lived in the west end while attending UofW, grocery shopping was not a problem.
Well stated, thanks for clarifying this often quoted misperception
Mark, I have always thought the idea of a downtown marina is a good idea - but that may just be because of my experience in tourist areas on the west coast (look at the slips in the inner harbour of Victoria, as well as outside of Victoria in Oak Bay Marine, Sidney, etc). Look at the marinas around Vancouver as well. Of course, they have a much larger tourist industry to tie into, so its not apples to apples.
That said, I think your idea of a marina to marina ferry is a good one - and I would love to have a way to get myself AND my bike across to detroit without involving an automobile (although, I know one councillor is working on something in this regard).
If the mayor wants to build a water feature, he should build a pond in his backyard. The “canal” is not going to be a canal, it is going to be a ditch collecting rain water.
I think you’re absolutely right about the feasability study though.
As for the primary question: I have already answered that as someone who doesn’t live downtown, I really can’t see myself doing so without a conveniently located grocery store. People shop for groceries more often than they shop for clothes, or at the hardware store, etc.
Windsor is complaining people are changing to condo’s simply to save on property taxes, not for any other reason. Right now multi-res pay 2.5 times more per unit than residential units which makes 0 sense. In essence it shows how much this city cares about the businesses who operate in this city when they treat investors like this and force them to endure red tape to get to an equal playing field.
I don’t know for sure, but my common sense is telling me that building a marina and canal downtown is about the worst “bang for your buck” way to get people downtown. I like the ferry idea. Why not let the tourism board subsidize fees for a startup and give them cheap docking fees. Don’t we have cruise ships dock here now? This city does not run businesses well or manage major construction (most governments don’t).
One of the major problems with getting businesses to open downtown is the property tax. I bet MPAC pays about the same tax for their new building in Tecumseh with a large parking lot included as they were in an old building, not on the ground floor on Ouellette with no parking. We just looked at a building downtown assessed at over $400,000 by MPAC for sale for $240,000 who has had 0 offers in the last year. They would probably take $150,000. The tax is over $15,000/year, they would have a hard time renting it for more. This is a major problem. If MPAC had it assessed at $200,000 the taxes would be $600 less a month, maybe then it could be affordable for a new business. MPAC won’t look at values again until 2012. Maybe they need to take a look in 2010 and sharpen their pencils on these valuations. Surely the comparable sales have gone down considerably, especially with so much on the market.
The Province, not MPAC, froze assessments. A property owner may submit a Request for Reconsideration to MPAC free of charge. They don’t have to wait for the 2012 province-wide reassessment. They can appeal the decision of MPAC to the Assessment Review Board for a small fee.
I’m also pretty sure that MPAC has never rejeted an appeal on a downtown property. Spoke to them a year back and they were extremely understanding about downtown hardships and enough properties sold for cheap giving them all the comparables they need for justificaiton
they rejected ours
I’m suprised and would like this info to be forwarded to DWBIA development committee.
Breaking News: Portals aim to reconnect river, residents
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/riverwalk/87188022.html
By Jennifer Hiller - Express-News
It’s the river, but not the River Walk we know.
The design of the eight-mile Mission Reach of the San Antonio River will have no tightly packed restaurant row. No drinks sold in souvenir margarita glasses. No funky, modern artwork to confound people.
Instead, starting with the opening this spring of Phase 1, there will be hike-and-bike paths and something called “mission portals” — an attempt to use architectural features, pathways and landscaping to reconnect the river to both the Spanish missions and the South Side neighborhoods that dot its banks.
It’s a new, more natural concept for a city whose approach to the river long has been to either manicure it or use it as a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers drainage ditch.
“This is going to be strikingly different,” Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff said. “It’s hard for all of us to envision what it’s going to look like when it gets through.”
The four portals will be designed by teams of artists, architects, landscape architects and historians. They’ve received a $2 million commitment from the San Antonio River Foundation, the nonprofit group that paid for the bridge artwork along the new Museum Reach of the river.
Without design teams chosen — something that should happen in March — the idea of mission portals remains conceptual. The first is expected to be finished in spring 2011.
“Even we don’t really know what they’re going to look like,” said Al Remley, chief of interpretation for the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park.
There’s talk of “view corridors,” “earthen berms,” landscaping, lighting and signage. The portals will relate to the overarching theme that the parks service emphasizes at each mission — religion, art and architecture at Mission Concepción; daily life at Mission San José; the river and acequias at Mission San Juan; and ranching and farming at Mission Espada. Any artwork will need to be amenable to the neighborhood.
“I don’t expect a school of wild, outrageous, fiberglass fish somewhere along the pathway,” said Mike Addkison, art and architecture project manager with the river foundation. “But who knows.”
Nick Hollis, foundation chairman, said what’s important is that there will be a significant investment in the South Side.
“There’s a long-held belief on the South Side that the money always goes somewhere else,” he said. “We’re going to put things there that will be relevant to that community. It’s their backyard. These are going to be important structures.”
And they’ll have to win a variety of approvals, including from the city’s Historic Design Review Commission, to “make sure we don’t put something that’s just hideous out there,” Hollis said.
The major goal of the Mission Reach is returning the river to a more natural state.
But with seedling trees and newly planted native grasses, the initial unfinished look might disappoint those hoping that millions of dollars could buy an instant ecosystem.
“When people first see this they’ll say, ‘Gee it looks like the old river. Why are we spending all of this money?’” said James Gray, principal at landscaping architecture firm Rialto Studio, which is overseeing the design of the Mission Reach.
It takes time to recreate nature.
“The community will be able to witness the rebirth of a natural area,” said Steven Schauer, communications manager for the San Antonio River Authority.
Flood risk means the Mission Reach won’t have as much in-channel artwork as other parts of the River Walk. Artwork and structures will be placed at street level in a public park or along the mission portal pathways.
“It has to carry the entire swath of a 100-year flood event,” Schauer said.
The natural river environment has given SARA a chance to study the possibility of bike, canoe or kayak rentals.
“It will be floatable for paddle recreation,” Schauer said. “There are a number of great possibilities.”
Remley anticipates more park visitors.
“We’re going to get a lot of recreational users. A lot of them will be San Antonians,” he said. “For us as a park, it’s a chance to reconnect with them.”
A complex web of agencies are playing a role in the Mission Reach, including the county, the Corps of Engineers, the river foundation, SARA, the city, the National Park Service and the Archdiocese of San Antonio. And the river foundation is raising money for other enhancements such as pocket parks, play areas, waterscapes, butterfly gardens and community gardens.
“It’s always a challenge of who owns what,” County Commissioner Sergio “Chico” Rodriguez said. “It’s like a patchwork blanket. But this is about the missions. It’s about the portals. We need to look at the infrastructure outside the river, and everyone is supportive of that.”
Below is a link to a large map of the new plan.
http://media.mysanantonio.com/images/20100228missionreach_graphic.jpg
So much for Eddie’s world changing unique plan of a canal to draw developers -
Plan to Daylight Creek in Downtown Berkeley Hits Roadblock
http://www.planetizen.com/node/43250
Berkeley’s popular plan to turn a section of Center Street into a pedestrian walkway with a stream and wetlands has been slowed by the fight over downtown development.
A popular project to daylight Strawberry Creek in Berkeley, California and divert to the surface at Center Street is on hold. The project is tied to a larger Downtown Plan that is highly contentious.
Johanna Hoffman reports, “Although the Center Street Project is currently tied up with the downtown plan, there is a possibility it could move forward on other avenues. The project could be approved through Berkeley’s Streets and Open Space Improvement Plan, which will come up for consideration later this year, or via sponsorship by a specific council member. However, neither possibility has yet been realized.”
Full Story: Eco-Plaza Needs a Green Light
Source: East Bay Express, March 3, 2010
And Marinas can draw opposition too:
http://www.timescolonist.com/Mega+marina+mega+debate/2681818/story.html
(Although this sounds like a much bigger plan than any idea I’ve heard of for Windsor).