Pedestrian Mall term shouldn’t be thrown around so easily
I think something needs to be clarified in the debate about Pelissier.
The streetscape proposal submitted by the DWBIA designed by Joe Passa allows for easy conversion of the street to a pedestrian Mall. HOWEVER, it’s not an “All or Nothing” deal.
A pedestrian Mall can mean simply closing the street on Sundays like Kensington Market in Toronto. Businesses on that street should not be alarmed by the thought of losing “stop and go” traffic as that is not the intention of the DWBIA.
The fact is that we can have our cake and eat it too. Streets as Public Places strategy means that we can use streets like Pelissier for multiple purposes. Maybe this street (or a portion of it) becomes the Farmers market. Maybe we do a weekly “Garage Sale” with an antique market by the Pelissier Garage. Regardless the goal is to make it family friendly and an area where bldg owners can lease out to better tenants than bars like Industry where the Shooters all ran from. (We also need to acknowledge that denying the DWBIA’s request for allowing after hours bars on Pelissier is again the cause of this latest shooting)
We need to approach this cautiously so that we do not scare the businesses of that street and make this a win win proposal for everyone.
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I don’t care what you call it. Closing down the street to vehicular traffic will kill Pelissier St. unless it is a one day event as proposed above.
Windsor does not have the density nor population to make the area seem “bustling”. The end result is that unless there are a lot of people on the street, the mall will look too desolate and therefore people will definitely stay away.
Look no further than Washington Blvd in downtown Detroit. Since they REHABED many buildings on Washington, opened it up to vehicles the result has been much better than when they had it closed.
Kensington Market works because there is density in the area. Many people utilize it and live nearby. Many have disposable incomes (unless the surrounding downtown area. Though that is not to say there are not people with money downtown).
Attract residents, and downtown flourishes. Zero tolerance with the hoodlums and with the rowdiness and people will feel safe. Once people feel safe they will go anywhere. Do people feel safe downtown? For the most part…no!
I agree with Dave. As much as pedestrian-only thoroughfares are tantalizing, they haven’t been very successful in North America.
Licensing vigilence will eventually eradicate the crime problem on Pelissier.
If changes to the built environment are going to made, Pelissier and Victoria should be turned back into two way, slow moving streets with good pedestrian and bike capacity.
Any artists out there?
Draw this image. The Red Sea parting, our Mayor (or city planner) as Moses, hands outstretched, downtown businesses as the Israelites being led from Egypt to the promised land, see the WFCU at the far end of the parted waters.
Send the image to me and I will post it.
In case you hadn’t heard, another long-time downtown business is moving out. Mayhew Office Furniture, formerly Windsor Office Supply is heading to new digs on Rhodes Drive.
Just another empty store front.
I agree with Dave and Tristan, pedestrian malls don’t work and there aren’t enough shops etc on Pelissier to make truely distinct. Two way slow traffic allowing for pedestrians to mix on the street would make it interesting.
University Avenue is becoming a waste land, it’s to wide, narrow it for more interaction from both sides of the street, almost two different worlds now.
And get rid of all oneway streets in the core!!!
University and Ouellette will become downtown’s signature corner due to it being The main straight through from the Casino to the West End
Monday Night will be very interesting, regarding Pelissier. I don’t know of any business willing to endorse a EXCLUSIVELY pedestrian street in addition to the city’s own administration. However, everyone has agreed that we can do a lot to improve upon the current Street.
We can also do a lot more to make it safer and make it easy to convert to a public space.
Think “Sunday Antique Fair” or
“Sunday Pelissier Parking Garage Sale”
The important thing is to add more greening. Although Chris Schnurr brought up the option of bike lanes, I think the businesses agreed that greening and pedestrian space trumped bikes as there wasn’t room for both.
The big thing is to get all the businesses to sign off on parking space reductions A.S.A.P. There will still be spaces, just not as many. We have to show them that the Aesthetic value and the Traffic calming measures such as 2 way street conversion, fountains, pavers will more than compensate them for their partial loss in parking (NOTE TO BUSINESSES: THERE WILL STILL BE SOME PARKING SPOTS)
There definitely needs to be on street parking downtown. In fact I advocate for more of it. Why you ask? Simply because we live in a car-centric city and it isn’t going to change anytime soon.
If we want our downtown to be a destination as well as a neighbourhood we must have on street parking to cater shoppers and visitors. Every other city seems to have it without issue.
I think most of the one-way streets need to be reversed except for Janette & Bruce. These streets act as direct routes to other parts of the city and work rather well. Without them just moving south would add 10+ minutes to anyone’s time. This does not help anyone who does want to live in the core.
University Ave should have a nice manicured boulevard added to it (like many Paris blvd’s) which would make it a pleasing looking street. Add in that it will also calm the fast driving that happens on a regulaor basis. It could end at Bruce with a nice overhead sign welcoming people to Windsor’s downtown (no, not some crappy banner, but a permanent structure done in iron).
It sure would beat the mess it looks today seeing as this city won’t look at any streetcar additions or light rail. But then again I am sure it will be screwed up like the current ugly streetscaping going on downtown.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we actually used some colour in our street designs? I mean why couldn’t we put back the stamped coloured concrete crosswalks that were installed in 1999 for the OAS summit? instead we get asphalt toping and bland concrete crosswalks. Add in the ugly coloured (is it grey?) pavers on the side of the, yet again, concrete sidewalks and it just looks so piss-poor. It looks like it was done by some Soviet era gov’t on the cheap. It is absolutely pathetic!
O.k. I am done with my rant for the day…this city tires me out.
Dave there will always be a contentious debate between using public space for Parking vs. Biking vs. Pedestrian space. I fought vigorously to maintain parking spots on Ouellette.
Each street within Downtown needs to be addressed separately. If this were Ouellette, university my position would be different.
However Pelissier’s best use is as a Residential Support district. A “pelissier Street Village” akin to Greenwich Village. You have Royal Windsor Terrace, Victoria Park Place, Horwitz new 45 residences etc…. Dedicating more of this space to residents over visitors makes more sense for this Particular street.
Pelissier should be filled with residences that are also Work/Live spaces for artists where art is created. Between it and the Arts District there should be spaces to display and sell this art.
Pelissier should also be home to a florist, a butcher, hardware store bigger than the existing one in Victoria Park Place. It should house a specialty wine store.
And sure Cafe’s and appropriate Hospitality uses should be peppered in throughout.
That is a vision that I will continue to support.
Mark, that is what I exactly would like to see on Pelissier!! It’s a great little street just off the main drag. It’s close and comfortable. London, England is trying an experiment that I posted in the News a couple of weeks ago, where they are doing away with all traffic lights, signs, road markings, speed limits,designated lanes etc. and just letting it evolve. They found that with pedestrians, cyclers and cars, all gave way and all slowed down.
I think the argument that “more drive-thru traffic and more parking is good for business” is false. Look at the old Salvation Army building only a block or two away on Victory.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/edwinpadilla/sets/72157622377561897/show/
Three lanes of traffic, surrounded by parking on all sides and plenty of convenient diagonal parking just in front of the building – yet, how long has this building been empty? If more drive-thru traffic and more parking was good for business this would be the premier business address downtown.
Also, look at the farmers’ market. Thanks to the tireless work of some very dedicated individuals, we have an example of how a pedestrian mall on Pelissier could look like.
Let’s wait to see what city administration and DWBIA have to say Monday. Clearly, doing nothing is not working.
There are a few misconceptions that are being thrown around as truths.
First of all, a street isn’t avoided because no one goes there as Dave alluded to. There has to be something there to attract patrons. There needs to be a reason to visit the area and it doesn’t matter if it’s open to vehicles or not. If the attration is there people will park and walk. Just because a street is open to cars doesn’t mean those cars are necessarily stopping.
Secondly, pedestrian malls are very successful in North America. Just to name two; Jacques Cartier Square in Montreal and Beale Street in Memphis. Both places have attractions that draw shoppers and visitors. They properly market themselves both as individual businesses and as an area as a whole. The onus must be placed on the business owners to draw patrons to their establishments. The DWBIA can only do so much.
Lastly, the width of a street has no bearing on the success that street will see in a business sense. The Champs d’Elysees is 12 lanes wide with businesses lining both sides of the street for miles. JCS above, is the width of a football field.
It takes vision and marketing. Make the people want to come by providing somethig they need or desire. Doesn’t matter if the street is open to vehicles or not.
Point taken Line of Sight. If the business owners and residents on Pelissier had banded together and petitioned the city to create a pedestrian only street, or at least a sizeable majority of them had, then it would be a project worthy of some risk and investment. I’m not convinced after talking to some of them that such a groundswell of support exisits.
A mayor coming up with the plan (1) after a shooting and (2) justifying it as a crime detention method (WTF) is not a sufficient basis for transformational change.
The things that are working and even flourishing in the city right now started from the ground up. Projects coming out of the established institutions are, for the most part, half-assed, micro-managed, fleeting and bereft of passion.
You are correct Tristan. A grass roots initiative often provides the impetus for implementing the proper program. However, it has been too often that this mayor and council have only paid lip service to public input while proceding with they’re own plans. Unfortunately, in the case of Pelissier St, the mayor has no plan at all.
I don’t know if a pedestrian mall is the solution for fighting crime. Probably not at all. But as a planning idea, there is much in it’s favour. A shadey and cozy street lined with owner-operated restaurants, cafes, and terraces, a used-book store, some sidewalk art vendors, and even a green grocer or two. All without the interruption of vehicular traffic, fumes, and noise.
LOS. Some pedestrian malls are tremendous successes. But since 1970 about 70% of them were deemed complete and dismal failures and converted back to traffic. This is what I’ve been told at many IDA (international Downtown association) conferences
Its not something you just do willy nilly. There are so many other factors that contribute to a pedestrian malls success other than just closing the street. Address those factors and maybe, only maybe will it succeed. Those other factors are detailed in the canal report.
WIndsor Star did a major flip flop when it crucified the DWBIA for dealing with symptoms and not causes. But when it comes to the mayor, no problem asking people to deal with symptoms not problems.
I presented a vision on this street on one of my replies that I believe is undisputed and undeniably the best. Pelissier St. Village. I spent hundreds of hours getting it adopted by the BIA, making a video and having it put in a brochure.
What would be nice is to get some coordinated help in realizing that vision;
Mark, are your report and video available on line? I’d be interested in having a look at them.
http://www.citywindsor.ca/DisplayAttach.asp?AttachID=15129
Look for Meeting #2 notes. You’ll get a lot more detail
I find it really pathetic that our DWBIA has to foot so much of the streetscaping bill in Windsor and then they really don’t have much say in the design. Yes they are asked what they think but does it ever get implemented?
I mean shouldn’t that $100,000 (and more from the past) be used for advertisements and/or more facade improvements for our downtown buildings?
Mark, I love the vision of Pelissier St. Village. And I also agree it is the best fit with the now and potential for the street. However, we need to appreciate the size of the challenge if we what to realize the vision. Street scape and a more pedestrian friendly space while important are not enough. I agree with LOS and Tristan that a grass-roots effort is also important. Thus, I would suggest, business incubation and support is also a key success requirement especially considering the number of empty storefronts.
I think, the DWBIA and the business school at the university should work together a lot more. The challenges of successfully starting and running the type of business you describe, in the core, are unique. It requires an intimate knowledge of the downtown customer because that is the only way to overcome the distribution advantage of other locations in the city.
Happy Thanksgiving week-end to all.