A closer look at the cost/benefit of the canal - Benefits Part I
Instead of endless whining about a years old decision about building an arena on City Center West. What about a more detailed look at the future. I have most always listed the benefits and costs of an urban village in point form. Some of these benefits are very complex and far reaching. So lets look at each benefit and cost on its own. Lets not confuse them together and examine them all.
A chance for an urban village, a new downtown neighborhood designed from the ground up. I think that benefit itself warrants a discussion. I invite everyone to also submit to Scaledown via email, more details on other benefits and the 3 costs that I have listed. The more information we gather and submit to the city’s feasibility study the better chance we have at making the best decision.
Why is a new urban village important when we already have an urban village in Walkerville, and to a lesser extent in each of the other BIA’s?
Well for one, designing and elements of successful urban villages have improved since Walkerville was created 100 years ago. This is not just another residential development, this is Windsor’s chance to have the Canada’s best small urban village.
In 2006, the PCBC created “The Vine Conference”
The Vine is a growing network of creative people who gather to examine the nature of community and explore ways to make it better.
By gathering information from these amongst many other sources, we not only have a chance to create some new homes with bricks and mortar but we have a chance to create a cutting edge community within our city. A community where the people within them find new ways to connect that aren’t possible in the existing communities in our city or our entire province.
This is not just a potential for a mixed use development but a development that creates a new mix and new ways to mix. How public spaces are used to connect the uses within the mix is only limited by our imagination and our drive to learn about the best practices being developed for other new communities.
City Center West has directly adjacent to it a college campus, a soon to be developed Grace Hospital site, An empty Salvation Army bldg, A riverfront park. Can a new community in this area create new connections to these facilities. Could this new community draw people in from the adjacent communities allowing them to find new ways to connect with each other? Would this community be limited by city center west or could this development find ways to nurture a community within the hundreds of surrounding residential units?
What would a new community in Windsor look like. Most other examinations look at things from what is possible. Even those who don’t favour a canal must surely look at the opportunity for building a new community in our core. This new community would have access to amenities not found anywhere else in this city. It would also stimulate interest for how existing adjacent communities could duplicate its success. Maybe Glengarry Marentette would be next? or maybe it would be the area between city center west and the University?
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BTW a certain blogger is quoting my remarks regarding a safety study and CIP study as being the same as a feasibility study.
Very different things.
1. Feasibility study is to decide if there should be action taken at all towards a particular plan or goal.
2. CIP’s and Safety studies are undertaken after a community has already decided that it wants to take action towards a certain goal and is trying to decide which particular action should be taken and at which timetable
To perform #2 with no budget is dishonest while performing #1 (feasibility) with no budget in mind is the purpose of the actual study. to Find out what the budget needs to be. Costs and benefits.
BTW, its dishonest to misrepresent my views in such a manner but that is a key difference between what other bloggers write.
As for a tangible example of how physical construction fo a connection between community. Can you make the place where the common mailbox’s become a social gathering place giving neighbors an additional opportunity to connect
Well, you don’t need a 3 block canal to have a social gathering place. In MY neighbourhood most of us sit out front and visit one another when seen.
Unfortunately some of the greedier landlords would love to try and get the biggest bang for their buck if land is expropriated. This is another reason why neighbourhoods with a high amount of rental properties have a hard time gentrifying. regardless of what is done many of these landowners could care less about their properties and they will continue to be an eyesore with no care forthe neighbourhood surrounding them. But they will cash in at the detriment of those who are trying to make a better community.
Once again Windsor will ignore the residents for whoever has a dollar.
Partially true, Mark.
You wrote:
“We are still one of, if not the largest city in North America that does not offer tax incentive financing to encourage residential growth in the core. Detroit offers lots of them and they achieved thousands of new residents and units. They just announced more based on their success. Even cities that are already successful offer them such as Denver.
Where are the incentives to redevelop glengarry west? Its not the Community Improvement Plans and other studies that are an utter waste of taxpayer money, its the lack of any political will to implement them.
I would go as far as saying that its dishonest of our politicians to begin these studies if they do it knowing they may not have have budget to implement them.
Remember CCSERT? $40,000 for a study but only $6000 to implement recommendations.”
You did not clarify your statement then, and have only raised more questions regarding this feasibility study.
Sure, let’s follow your logic. Let’s assume then, the canal can be built - and it probably can be.
Then what? Where are the funds to implement the concept? Without the funds then this feasibility study is yet another stall tactic for unknown purposes to issuing an RFP for the urban village which have been constantly promised, but never materialised.
How do you we know that developers would not come forward to construct a village, without gauging interest first through a formal RFP process?
So we’ve gone from asking why we do not offer tax incentive financing to outright public subsidies for private developers to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.
Where do I sign up?
Absolutely, I want to see a cost/benefit analysis. Go for it.
I want to know the following:
How much will developers gain?
For $60-million (and most assuredly more than that); what is the return to the city?
What population densities for the area are attempted to achieve? What demographic is being targeted?
What will the total projected return through property taxes be to the city for a $60-million investment over 40 years?
What will the short-term budgetary impact be on the city to fund this project?
Will development fees be waived or further tax incentives offered as permitted by provincial legislation?
I won’t even get into your statement about misrepresentation of comments (based upon a vague statement made); I’m sure you will agree that we are all guilty of that practise from time to time, right Mr. Boscariol?
Its peculiar that when I mention a certain blogger, you respond.
I believe that we shouldn’t have begun the CIP process if we weren’t going to even complete them. Especially when some went uncomplete and shelved while others were begun.
It might be another stall tactic and I understand that, but one would have to accept as a premise that stall tactics are actually the result of evil intentions when it comes to the city.
I will continue to live my life as an optimist that believes that the vast majority of people do not have evil intentions. Whether I’m right or wrong, its a much better quality of life.
Most people confuse bad decisions with bad intentions when they most often are the result of bad
ME, you don’t need a canal to improve an existing neighborhood, but you would need one in windsor to start from scratch. The hope was that we’d discuss what amenities you could add if yoiu started from scratch such as combining the mailbox area with a public space that gave neighbors an additional chance to socialize. Or mixing in commercial needs with those residents.
Don’t get me wrong, University Avenue with some of the city space could serve as that junction on the existing neighborhood
Boy, I wish the resources available now were available in 2003 to the City Center West CIP committee
Since this wasn’t being posted in the original blog I tended it to be, I’ll post it in here. Sorry to be off topic.
Does anyone know if anybody from local industry attended the meeting for the Wind Energy Supply Network yesterday?
According to the WEDC website, there was a meeting held “regarding building a supplier base for wind energy -with a US based not for profit group Executive Director Ed Weston of the Great Lakes Wind Network ( http://www.glwn.org/ ) being organized by Rainer Kunau.”
This seems like a great opportunity for local industry that is hurting from automotive restructuring to get on board with sustainable energy production. It would be interesting to know how much local interest there was in this.
More about the event can be read here: http://www.choosewindsoressex.com/news/events.cfm?id=378&year=2008&month=8
I know what I would start with and it wouldn’t be a sixty million freebee canal to one or any developer. If the developers think the idea is worthy then let them build the canal/marina to lure their customers to their developments. And would the residents and business owners be paying waterfront property taxes for this nice amenity, like the rest do in Ontario. I hope so because I’m not.
The basic infrastructure is already in place roads, sewers, watermains, they may have to be upgraded for density reasons but the land is shovel ready! And since this canal would be in a residential area, would the new owners/tenants tolerate all the noise that now exists in the core from the American drunks, since the canal will be if bulilt be in a public area or all the urinating, imagine a three block pee trough! And, another and, I don’t want to see monster condominums like Victoria Park Place on site, creating canyons of concrete.
But then there is 1,300 homes for sale in Windsor and the county and growing in the dark, with retirees stuck in their homes with no buyers, so at this moment they can’t gentrify the core with Windsor leading the natiion in housing price drops.
This is not a good idea for now maybe in the future, like Youngstown Ohio that lost the steel industry and is still shrinking even after two generations! Mend what we have now, repair our aging infrastructure and work with our neighbourhoods.
There would be a problem with any boat horns sounding.
However, “pee trough” is still the harshest term yet (I can’t defend it appropriately and I hope the feasibility study committee can)
But youngstown ohio and Flint Michigan are great examples, if we keep waiting, do we become them? what could we have done to reverse what happened to them.
NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT. I do not believe that tje Schnurr/Arditti (are they the same?) course of action would have changed the fate of those cities. I defy them to show any evidence that fixing infrastructure ALONE would make a difference.
We have a chance to chart a different course from Youngstown or Flint. What evidence have Schnurr given that simply sticking to infrastructure would prevent us from repeating their history?
As for certain other bloggers, its the same as what the original speachrwriter for Bush really said vs. how he changed it. Its the axis of “HATE” vs. the Evil. The difference is that they hate, and we don’t. They believe their enemies have some evil intentions. I believe that everyone is capable of bad judgement, but to say someone has bad intentions says more about the author
Blaming the mayor simply absolves everyone else in this city of their responsibility.
Remember Richard Florida’s book
WHOSE YOUR CITY?
I hope to hell our city is not Ed Arditti. If thats what you want our city to be, who in the hell do you think will choose it?
Urbanrat, just to be clear. I’m asking you what would you recommend as a course of action that differentiates us from Flint or Youngstown.
I do not want to repeat their history and there is nothing in the alternatives to the canal that would suggest different results.
Everything course of action that has been recommended as an alternative to a canal has been tried in Youngstown and Flint, it didn’t work out so well.
One definition of Insanity is to do the same thing again and again and expect different results
“I do not want to repeat their history and there is nothing in the alternatives to the canal that would suggest different results.”
An alternative is what many of us have been screaming for in many posts, Mark…RELIABLE, GREAT PUBLIC TRANSIT.
Light Rail Transit would go a HUGE way in helping not just the core, but the rest of the city at the same time.
I agree with you, Adriano. Light Rail would be of much greater benefit to the city as a whole than the canal proposal. It is something that will more than likely be needed at a later date, paying for it while it is still afordable is a smarter thing to do.
Yes, Light raiil may be that alternative, I was only thinking in terms of fixing roads and sewers which, while important, will not revitalize the core by itself
I suggest researching other LRT feasibility studies
If you go to the website Planetizen and others, Florida’s book Whose Your City is now being torn apart with Florida doing somersaults trying to defend his idea. I’ve read his book and there is something just not right about his thinking of ciites.
What would I do differently you ask..a lot! It seems to be a disease of mayors and city councils in this city since the fifties to react to Windsor’s cycle of recession and good times, to come up with KNEE-JERK ideas to kick start our economy when it is down, The Ply Wood Palace, the Cleary, the Candarel, in all these cases our city administration threw tax payers dollars at developers schemes which in turn the developers never delivered on the grand vision and and we are still paying for them.
What is it of Windsor’s psyche that we allow and have allowed our seemingly incompetent lack of due diligence and vision city administrations to throw money at developers and their snake oil dreams, then tell the people who paid for it like it or lump it! Sixty million plus dollars is a lot of money to hand over to developers from out of town who could care less of which city they are bilking!
I would build something for the us, not for an out of town developer who really doesn’t care about any city they are in, as long as they can make a buck then leave.
What would I build? Two things. One, a new central library, incorporating a new city museum/heritage centre, a”third place.” Outside of the fire and police departments, libraries are open more hours to the public than the Art Gallery of Windsor, the Capitol theatre and the new music centre and the new arena. Key collections in the WPL now can be and are a focus for tourists, the genealogy collection (genealogy tourism is a billion dollar a year business world wide,again I have the research to prove that) the Automotive HIstory collection (nothing like it anywhere else in Canada!) Every city that has built a new central library in their cores have seen huge residential influx and building ( I have the literature to prove this also) . On average every public library system returns on average five dollars to its community for every dollar invested, no other public funded institute can claim that nor even a new community museum can do that. Every walk of life, every economic level, every age, every business man/company can use a library, not everybody is interested in a cities history.
Two: A light rail transportation system connecting all the neighbourhoods.
If you want a Smart, Creative and Innovative city, then build something that states that, libraries today are not what you remembered, they are on the cutting edge or can be if properly funded! Every city the size of Windsor in Ontario has built, is building, or like Ottawa putting together a 200 million dollar business plan for a new central library because they know that is the future of their cores is to create a “third place” for everybody, to read, to research, to learn, to find access to this wide world, or sit and read, meet and have a coffee, in a safe clean environment. Our libraries are open depending on the season 64 hours a week, tell me what other institute or city department is open that many hours besides the fire and police departments!
Urbanrat, I too am dubious of the message Richard Florida is spreading,
http://www.scaledown.ca/2008/04/01/is-he-a-guru-or-an-enabler/
I know where you are coming from with the library/museum as a real ‘third place’ another thing that we in Windsor have some control over is where and what kind of schools we build. In another blog http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/what-is-the-future-of-suburbia-a-freakonomics-quorum/
many of the comments talk about schools and how the best and newest schools are built in the suburbs. Perhaps a high school, for high academic achievers could be built in our downtown. A school like that could take advantage of the proximity of the university (in previous discussions we have established that the U is really not that far from downtown) and the college’s downtown campus, as well as the art gallery, a new museum, theater space and so on. High school students can and will use public transit but, eventually families that see their children attending such a school may look at moving closer and the opportunity for gentrifying and creating new developments around famillies in the downtown.
I agree James, imagine a super highschool, combining the performing/visual arts with mentoring from the Art Gallery of Windsor, the universitie’s School of Visual Arts and the School of Music and Dramatic Arts, the new music centre and along with a technical school trades et al with the school of engineering of both St. Clair college and the Univerwsity as a mentors, imagine the cross feeding of innovation and learning!
“Its peculiar that when I mention a certain blogger, you respond.”
Great response to answer the questions raised. I must thank you for that.
Furthermore, the above quoted comment is exactly what you wrote on my blog - something you seem to take pleasure in doing to others - except when it happens to you.
mmmm….
High unemployment; falling wages; exodus of jobs and residents.
And the solution is a canal?
Oh my stomach hurts….
Actually, I support any project that will densify and gentrify the core.
There has been only one alternative offered on this site which is a trolley. Where do you stand on that one Chris, or do you find that a monumental waste of money as well.
You have not proposed any project that would gentrify or densify the core.
But yes a development that would gentrify, densify the residential base of our core while at the same time increase tourism, create a new link to downtown detroit through a ferry service and create a new downtown community does.
But since you can reduce this and more to simply building a canal would be liike reducing your proposal for what to do with the money to turn windsor around to fixing a sewer.
Always oppose never propose is not a mantra that I follow. So far there has been one alternative proposed here
$60 million to start for a canal.
Yet a fireman has to call Provincial health and safety to get workplace conditions repaired that the city knew were in a state of disrepair.
Is the canal a pipe dream? Yes.
I suspect that the canal proposal is a tactical feint. Like a magician’s hand gestures to keep your eyes away from where the “trick” is being performed.
Perhaps, just perhaps when this thing is finally dead and whatever developers are disappointed at the outcome they will be offered some consolation prize…like brownfield grants to clean-up and redevelop some former tier one auto parts supplier strategically located adjacent to a city owned high-profile recreation facillity.
Just a thought…
James, the High School is a great idea. However we all know the School Board has no interest in investing in the inner-city. They have proven that with every school closure.
To see how a specialized high school in a downtown setting works, you don’t have to look any farther than Cass Tech in Detroit.
Why W.D. Low evolved from a Technical School, and was eventually closed, I’ll never understand. There’s something to be said for specilazed courses. It works at Walkerville (despite the board’s attempt to close it a few years back).
Mark wrote:
Well “Eddie is always right!” isn’t a mantra that I follow.
This city is in dire straights, and a canal is most certainly not the answer.
Mark must be away for the weekend, he asked me what would I propose and I did but no comment from him.
Here’s some irony for you all. Last month the Wood Carvers Museum lost their fundraising status by city council because they had to much money in the bank. Money that was generated through bingos and fund raising to eventually build their own standalone museum, they are currently housed at the Central Library on Ouellette Avenue.
This is a unique museum in Canada, there is nothing else like it! The members have strived to portray just not the art of woodcarving but this areas history and culture through woodcarving, going so far as to commission a very beautiful life size sculpture of Chief Tecumseh in wood. They also teach classes to school groups and are very proactive in this community promoting our culture and history. But the city steps hard on their neck for doing so!
But the city doesn’t see that, they just see the money! Yet! Manager Mary Baruth of the city’s Culture and Heritage department wants to build her empire for the city with a $110,000 new museum feasibility study, while ignoring the work of the woodcarvers, the Black Historical Society, the Windsor Public Library’s Local History collection that exists nowhere else and all other groups that work long hours to preserve, present and educate the public to our history and culture. What does she want to build another monument to Eddie for Eddie.
There was no mention in this feasibility study that the city’s Culture and Heritage department would work with the various parties in an inclusive vision for this city.
A new museum is a good idea, considering the conditions of the now existing Windsor’s Community Museum but not to include other concerned parties that are attempting to do the same thing is wrong and denying them the means to fulfill their vision is also wrong.
A museum, like an art gallery, like a theatre, like a symphony orchestra are all good for a city and generate a momentary “third place” with the feeding of surrounding businesses but they are by their nature one way destinations for specific reasons and don’t encourage the public to linger within their walls like they would do in library (and are only open limited hours to the public.)
Imagine then a new civic library right in the middle of them all with the hours of operation that I mentioned above that has connecting displays or access to all the above, with indoor/outdoor auditoriums for small music concerts, a research centre for local history and genealogy feeding the community museum with off hour interest. The art gallery having its own salon(s) in that library, so that those who aren’t familiar or are use to going to an art gallery would have their interest peeked. Besides the expanded services the library now delivers despite the mean spirit of our mayor and council that have no idea what goes on in their public library.
I propose spending $60 million plus on a new civic library for “Every” person in this city rather than a canal for some developer that might build expensive condos for the wealthy. A new central library would go a long way in addressing a revitalization of this city just not the core.
Build for us, then the tourists will come, build for us so that our future will stay with us, a library is the cross roads of a city, where people of all walks of life cross each others path, mingle, interact with more personal destinations in mind and personal need than a mall, an art gallery, a museum, a theatre or a symphony orchestra concert.
A canal in a neighbourhood can’t do that!
I like the idea of new civic library, the way new downtowns have used libraries is amazing, they can be the anchor unit in a mixed use development and combined with all sorts of other uses such as the museum.
However, whether it be transit or a central library/museum whats going to happen is that there needs to be a developer attached.
As for Florida, I think some of what he says is true but he’s composing his theories around existing evidence instead of the other way around. However, cities like Chicago, Toronto and then smaller successful cities are spiking.
I think Florida is definitely right about one thing, the world is definitely spikey and not flat. If the world was truly flat, there would be movement to Windsor based on our property values alone. Engineering firms in New York are building projects in Vegas. Architects in London, England design entire cities in Saudi arabia, UAE and kuwait. if the world was flat, these people could work out of Wndsor Detroit for a fraction of the overhead cost.
Same with the entire retirement community strategy, real estate prices alone don’t do it. Its the perception of our city and I maintain the canal development will impact that perception.
Again though Urbanrat, I support any and all projects that would densify and gentrify the core. I think what we can do is look at the feasibility studies on each of these projects in other cities and see which ones have high returns.
The main thing is that one has to be picked and stick a shovel in the ground as things are not going to get better and our downtown is the only hope for revitalizing the entire city.
I don’t think the mayor is always right as I have disagreed with him on many issues. I make my decisions based on one singular question, Does this project bring residents to downtown? If it does, I support it, if it doesn’t I leave it alone. Would the arena have brought residents downtown, very doubtful, only 3000 visitors on event nights. In fact many residents said they wouldn’t live next to an arena as during the daytime it would create inactive blocks unfriendly to pedestrians with no commercial on the main floor.
P.S. my favorite library picture is here http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9641/2002274fr0.jpg
Mark stated: “Actually, I support any project that will densify and gentrify the core.”
…and at any cost right?
I have put my idea forward as to what I think would work but I was ignored by you.
While I still have to ask, why weren’t THE RESIDENTS asked about this before our illustrious “dear leader” (’Ol Kim would be proud) decided to go ahead with a plan for TAXPAYERS dollars and heartache for the residents.
So why again Mark do you not support my plan? My plan would certainly add a wider range of demographics (which insures success because it doesn’t put all of one’s eggs in one basket), it would also put pressure on FINALLY building a museum, library and/or high school; All things that make a downtown complete.
But no! We would rather use $60 million to build an elongated bath tub. Imagine what $60 million could do to lure investors, incentives for the exisiting downtown and/or LRT? It would do a helluva lot more for our downtown AND city than a 4 block tub would do!
If people aren’t moving into nice condo’s with a world class waterfront view what makes you so sure they will move into a condo that sits on a 20 foot wide canal? Heck, I would rather they put that $60 million into incentives to bring business to Windsor at least jobs could be attained.
Face it, you have a rather large investment where you will reap large benefits from this scheme while the rest of us eat crap for it and get screwed yet again! The last time I checked the “exproriation” as explained by Counc. Hatfield (and it will come) hasn’t been mutually beneficial to the taxpayers of this city nor those whose lands have been expropriated by our socialist leader(s) in the past.
According to your logic then Mark you will displace people who have contributed to downtown; restored or refurbished homes in order to make our downtown stronger; advocated downtown by moving there and investing in the downtown area after being promised an urban village will happen and therefore making property more enticing for potential investors and developers in order to bring more people there.
Then why not campaign to release the original RFP with INCENTIVES? Why spend yet more money on yet anotehr “idea”. I guess there is nothing like trying to help out but only receiving a punch in the face for your efforts….Windsor style. No wonder so many people have turned their backs on this once great city. But never fear folks we have others who will do ANYTHING at ANY COST in order to make sure THEY get THEIR piece of the pie.
Not at any cost, and i think the costs should be examined in detail.
I have campaigned to release the original RFP with Incentives from the day the arena decision was made.
But I am proposing residents like yourselves become a part of this new community. You’ve already said no and that decision has been made without examining what that new community could become.
I would like to see if there is anything that could be created in a new community that would even interest you. Maybe what you describe as a “Punch in the face” is really an opportunity for you to be a part of the best new community in Ontario and maybe it is actually a punch in the face. I don’t know and more importantly, either does anybody for sure
If after that examination, you feel the benefits of a brand new community do not outweigh the costs, then yes, I would have to listen very carefully.
But so far, we don’t even know how many and how extensive those benefits are.
P.S. I would put forth the request to involve residents when and if scaledown has a chance to provide input to the Committee.
I don’t think I didn’t support your plan, I think that each plan needs a feasibility study and each plan needs to have developers whove expressed interest.
I know nothing of what has taken place but I get the distinct impression that there has been a lot of discussions with potential developers up to this point that is not being disclosed. I think the feasibility study might be a way to formalize and make transparent those discussions. I have no evidence of this and it is simply my conspiracy theory generator.
I wonder if anyone can check if Farhi or any other developer has been buying up any properties. I’d put money that some conditional offers have already been signed right now. Following the money usually dicloses a lot.
Its not whether I support the different proposals, they have to not only be supported by the community but supported by developers, Both is required. So far the City center west committee is the communitie’s endorsement although existing residents must be acknowledged and addressed
Ol’ Mark wrote:
Uh, you mean like the Candrel? Wait, there is space there for retail, it’s just vacant still, after nearly a decade. What about all the vacant storefronts on Oullette? But I suppose you’re right. The Windsor mentality after all is “build more, reuse bad.”
So there’s an actual committee now?
Oh, Mark, stop! You’re making my sides hurt!
There is nothing that His Highness King Eddie loves more than secrecy.
If he could hold every meeting in camera, and disclose nothing to the pesky taxpayers and naysayer, trust me he would.
This mayor has proven he’s the least transparent of them all. Secrecy is job 1.
Fahri Holdings via Google:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=fahri+holdings&meta=
Local developers challenge OMB - London
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2008/08/15/6458201-sun.html
Here’s a search
Fahri Holdings via Google:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=fahri+holdings&meta=
Local developers challenge OMB - London
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2008/08/15/6458201-sun.html
Mark, I have unconfirmed reports of a person(s) buying up land in the CCW now. This could be speculation on the potential buyers part or someone getting their ducks in a row.
The reason I don’t want to be part of a canal plan is that I want(ed) to live in the downtown area in a historic capacity. Not in some brand new house or condo. It was the MAIN reason I chose the neighbourhood I did and the house I live in. We wanted to live in an older house that had character and history. That can’t be said with new construction today. And the only way that canal will be built is by destroying the neighbourhood around it.
Therefore you are NOt for the residents in this neighbourhood because you stated that you are for anything that brings in density. Density being destroying the fabric of an existing and thriving neighbourhood. Either I choose to live in a new condo or row house or leave….some decision! I guess I don’t get to live the life I choose nor the house or neighbourhood.
Any wonder why people don’t invest in this city with a mentality such as that? Just ask the business owners of the Candarel. Better yet, ask those people whose lands were originally expropriated to see if they were happy with the outcome IE: parking lots?
Mr. Hatfield better be careful what he states as well because I know of three lawyers that are looking at this “plan” very carefullly. I for one will not give up without a fight (IE very long one at great cost to this city and it’s taxpayers) if expropriation and the levelling of this neighbourhood is the plan that the city decides on. My gloves will come off very quickly and no one will be left standing…that EVERYONE can bank on!
Again, both you and I do not know which residential will survive or what will be offered.
You want to live in an area that doesn’t become more dense and remains only historic but yet you bought adjacent to 6.5 acres of empty land?
c,mon, I get what your saying but what did you think would happen with that land? The city has to maximize its value by definition.
Good ol andrew wrote
Ol’ Mark wrote:
… during the daytime it would create inactive blocks unfriendly to pedestrians with no commercial on the main floor.
Uh, you mean like the Candrel? Wait, there is space there for retail,….
I would have never supported the candrell development if I’d have been downtown. It doesn’t come close to meeting my singular criteria and I get the whole heritage value
Since finding this blog a few months ago, I have tried to come on everyday to see what the topic of discussion is, and what the various responses are to that posting. I have noticed that the responses are becoming more and more personal lately, and it appears that a select few are logging on only to call out others or to make jabs at one another. I do believe that dialog is healthy and that there will of course be differing opinions, yet lately the blog isn’t being so productive because of the above mentioned behaviour. Just by reading this latest posting about the canal proposal, it is clear that anyone directly involved (ie. business owners, home/land owners, renters, etc.) will ultimately decide whether to support the idea purely based on their own personal interests. I feel that Scaledown allows a unique opportunity to give a voice to those who might not otherwise get the opportunity to express their thoughts and feelings about a situation. Once the feasibility study comes out, opinions might change and it could come to a point when all involved parties might need to band together to represent the best interests of the downtown core. By going back and forth with these types of comments (because I don’t feel they are all constructive) not only are you displaying the behaviour you often mention you dislike about city council, but you are getting away from the point of this blog and causing people like myself to loose interest in it.
Completely agree with you this Kevin W. There are people involved in these blogs (myself included) who seem to be taking things very personally and that is to be expected. What troubles me though is that, from my perspective, advocating for or against the canal proposal (or any proposal) with only one area of the city (and the residents that live or will live there) in mind seems to be contrary to the mission and vision of Scaledown. Losing interest is not something I want, but it is happening with me as well.
Sure I have taken it personally and Mark and I, as well as others, have debated our positions endlessly. But that is what we are doing; debating the merits of these types of proposals. That to me is very important. Maybe we should leave out the personal attacks, but I will state we are all friends here wishing no harm to each other.
That being said, who thinks the “new downtown” on the east side is a great idea? I can hear the death bells ringing for our downtown if this gets built. But I have a suggestion that would save both areas. Bars in and around the arena and retail back downtown. Everyone wins!
I agree with you on the fact that people are only interested in discussing the western core area, which to me is wrong. I feel that the area directly east of the casino is in much worse shape than that of the western portion of downtown. The area to the east has been neglected for too long, and it is only because of the marginalized population who reside there. This blog should be used to discuss ways to revitalize the entire core. We have an arena that is sitting empty that could easily be turned into a flea market or farmers market. I believe that if the city wants to study something, they should study how we can attract and keep university/college students once they have completed their degrees. If we could attract more white collar jobs to the city and see head offices set up in the core, the rest will fall into place without having to invest in major infrastructure like the canal project.
Kevin -
I would concur. However, having a gaping hole in the centre of the city is not desirable. Residents are looking for leadership on this issue - and what we are treated to is plan after plan after plan being touted without any single one body taking a leadership position and demanding action on that plan.
Land expropriated for an arena? For naught.
Feasibility study for an arena development/urban village - denied.
Community consultation process and design guidelines complete with recommendations? Never acted on.
Engineering complex? Embraced by the DWBIA despite time and effort spent on urban village concept which was an obvious tactic to divert attention away from the funds expended expropriating property for an arena without consideration of the added cost and long-term expense to the University?
Now a canal…
What next? An Effiel Tower complete with gardens, ponds and fountains?
Kevin, Great ideas! I believe Mark has stated before that he too would like to see movement on the Glengarry/Marentette area as well. But until crime is tackled in that area it will never happen!
I also agree that we MUST start to look at “white collar” careers and start working with the UofW to keep graduating students from running off to other locales. As a region we have pissed away an awful lot of money on the WEDC with little results? Why is that? Political interference perhaps?
I also take issue (and have stated too numerous times to mention) with how our planning in this city is performed. Why do we build industrial parks and allow office complexes to be built instead?
I have asked City Hall this very question and was told that if they didnt’ allow it then the offices would be built outside the city! Talk about the cart BEFORE the horse! Earth to City Hall, this is already being done so what is there to lose? Wouldn’t that $60 million+ be better spent on incentives attracting these offices to downtown rather than a canal?
Chris S,
We almost went the way of the Effiel Tower in the early ’80s with a “Freedom Tower” (No, I am not kidding). It was to be built on Riverside Dr. and looked similar to the CN Tower in T.O. albeit it a bit shorter (though not by much).
By the way my email is still having problems and I will send you what we talked about as soon as I get it back up.
Actually the discussion here should be separated from the Canal program.
Maybe a separate independant discussion of what a new community could/should look like. Can you physically construct opportunities for the residents to participate? that is directly in scaledown’s mandaete
Kevin, I think that Glengarry Marentette is equally important as City Center WEst with the only difference being the 5-6 acres of undeveloped city owned property being potentially used to bring in developers.
Perhaps someone could explain where these 5 or 6 acres of city owned property are exactly in relation to the artist’s rendering of the canal?
Silly me, I thought the Caron cut was owned by CP rail or another company (I forget which one he stated) as Don Sadler informed me.
Next to the canal we could build a replica of Windsor Castle right downtown. It would be a great tourist attraction, especially if it had a drawbridge!!
I mostly agree with Chris with the following exception
An urban village can have institutional use (University/College campus) as part of its mix or as an anchor tenant.
So basically university/college campus as well as the Canal plan are both part an urban village plan. The engineering campus use however would have been too large of a campus
I disagreed with the current Chair of the DWBIA about having a DWBIA specifically endorse the engineering school, I specifically only used the terminology University Campus, not particular school and stated that publicly on AM800.
However, I believe the RFP should be issued now simultaneously with all of these other proposals so they would have a better judgement of cost-benefit of not having educational institution or canal infrastructure. Without additional incentive or tenants will developers simply propose an affordable housing project? I’d like to know
I can live with it not only because there has been a 90 day cut off and thats it.
Without ANY incentives the city along with the provincial gov’t will build affordable housing to the detriment of the downtown.
Building stadiums, arenas or museums will NOT bring about a new neighbourhood. That is money well wasted if the overall goal is attracting residents and/or new jobs. The single more important factors are reduction of crime and good schools. Both of which are severly lacking in the downtown core.
“Virginia has no major league subsidized sports facilities, other than those at its state-supported colleges and universities. Further, the state’s focus on technology and ordinary but financially self-sufficient commerce, rather than on subsidized adult entertainment, is fostering a statewide boom in high-paying technology-related jobs, as well as substantial private investment in resort and entertainment complexes.”
So where is the WEDC? Where is Windsor’s future?
“Good schools and low crime, not proximity to professional sports venues, determine where businesses locate and expand and where prosperous families choose to live.”
http://www.heritage.org/research/urbanissues/BG1223.cfm
In EVERY SINGLE article, report and essay I have read it supports what I have stated continuously on Scaledown.ca So why does our city gov’t do the opposite? Why are some of those who post here suggesting large investments with little return? IE: $1.00 paid to a museum, concert or sporting event results in only $1.60 being returned to the community.
If anyone wishes I can fill up this post with many more links to support what I am speaking.
Sorry to add. But I still think reusing the Salvation Army building for Drama at St. Clair College is a great idea. Or it could help to hosue a new law school for UofW (though they don’t have any money now so that will be a long way off). Those could be anchors for the village with the rest being row houses and mid-rise condos with ground floor retail.
The police could then crack down on crime in the surrounding downtown core.
Also in the link above it shows that heritage in a downtown area plays a large part in the re-emergence of that community. Yet Windsor wants to bulldoze theirs.
Wants to?
I’m pretty sure it’s almost all gone.
From Youngstown Moxie’s blog!
http://www.youngstownmoxie.blogspot.com/
To Be Strong Again: Renewing the Promise in Smaller Indutrial Cities, 64 pages
http://www.policylink.org/Projects/CoreCitiesInitiative/documents/ToBeStrongAgain.pdf
The canal plan and rail line consolidation plan presents an opportunity to link Windsor’s parks in a new six km walking/bike trail that can bring Windsor residents downtown to the edge of the new canal area. Inmage coverting rail land into park/walking/bike trails from Southdale park to the intersection of University and Caron.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=106871801900286914490.0004558e024eac2f318ec&ll=42.309498,-83.045096&spn=0.014028,0.027466&t=h&z=15
The canal plan and rail line consolidation plan presents an opportunity to link Windsor’s parks in a new six km walking/bike trail that can bring Windsor residents downtown to the edge of the new canal area. Image converting rail land into park/walking/bike trails from Southdale park to the intersection of University and Caron. (See map below.)
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=106871801900286914490.0004558e024eac2f318ec&ll=42.309498,-83.045096&spn=0.014028,0.027466&t=h&z=15
This could link some of Windsor’s great park areas into (dare I say it) a greenlink across the city. The riverfront, Jackson, Optimist, Memorial, Southdale, Langlois and Remington Park. It would truly extend the riverfront and the canal area inland into Windsor neighborhoods.
And how about a real pie-in-the-sky idea of going all the way to the airport with light rail?
Edwin